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Thyroid question
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vills Offline
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Thyroid question
Hi James,

Got a question for my mother, who has hyperthyroidism (recently diagnosed).

She has Low TSH (no T4, T3 tests done, typical). She is also very low on iron and recently diagnosed with very low Vit D.

Anyway, she's been on iron supplementation and her iron levels have gone back to normal and has started on Vit D supplementation. However, she is still feeling very weak and tired. I suspect it's her thyroid, as her symptoms are similar to mine. She is not taking anything for her thyroid at this stage as doctors believe once her iron levels and Vit D improve that her thyroid will also. She has dry mouth and eye problems and receding gums. I suspect ongoing infection. She believes her symptoms began when she was to get off her HRT which she had been taking for years(suddenly, no whining off it), so wondering if her adrenals crashed. She also gets dry patches around her eyes and has elevated high blood pressure (she was on aspirin for 3 years and high blood pressure meds and doctor suspects low iron levels are due to the long term aspirin treatment, she no longer takes either of the meds). She is normal weight and in her mid 60s and doesn't have a uterus or gallblader -but no digestive issues to write about.

Questions:

Her TSH is low and 3 months ago had high positive for antibodies, but now negative for antibodies but even lower TSH, but no improvement in symptoms. So i'm confused as to what could be causing her hyperthyroidism to get worse she is still very tired and has none of the typical hyperthyroid symptoms, but suffers more of the hypothyroid symptoms instead and continued fatigue - nothing seems to work.

Any ideas as to what might be still causing her hyperthyroidism lab tests to get worse? ie low TSH to continue declining but antibodies to decrease at the same time? and could her dry mouth, eyes and throat be part of her thyroid issues, or an infection? or could it be due to possible sudden loss of her estrogen(from withdrawal of HRT) or adrenals? (doctors refused to do hormone test except for testosterone, which is a bit elevated and low DHEA (she is taking adaptogens for adrenals (adrenal tonic) along with magnesium, kefir, prebiotics, recently started on Vit D (5000 iU per day with Vitamin K added to it)and she's still on a maintenance dose of iron supplementation. Anyway, could you please help explain what might be going on here.

CheersSmile
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2012 09:46 PM by vills.)
08-02-2012 09:20 PM
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James Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Thyroid question
(08-02-2012 09:20 PM)vills Wrote:  Hi James,

Got a question for my mother, who has hyperthyroidism (recently diagnosed).

She has Low TSH (no T4, T3 tests done, typical). She is also very low on iron and recently diagnosed with very low Vit D.

Anyway, she's been on iron supplementation and her iron levels have gone back to normal and has started on Vit D supplementation. However, she is still feeling very weak and tired. I suspect it's her thyroid, as her symptoms are similar to mine. She is not taking anything for her thyroid at this stage as doctors believe once her iron levels and Vit D improve that her thyroid will also. She has dry mouth and eye problems and receding gums.

Has she been checked for Sjogren's syndrome? If she has autoimmune hyperthyroidism then she would be at higher risk for Sjogren's, which is also autoimmune.

I suspect ongoing infection. She believes her symptoms began when she was to get off her HRT which she had been taking for years(suddenly, no whining off it), so wondering if her adrenals crashed.

The stress from the side effects of just going off of HRT cold turkey could have caused the adrenals to crash. And adrenal dysfunction plays a major role in autoimmune conditions.

She also gets dry patches around her eyes and has elevated high blood pressure (she was on aspirin for 3 years and high blood pressure meds and doctor suspects low iron levels are due to the long term aspirin treatment, she no longer takes either of the meds).

Aspirin and other NSAIDs are well known for causing internal bleeding leading to anemia if mild. Fatal hemorrhage at the worst.

High blood pressure has a number of causes.


She is normal weight and in her mid 60s and doesn't have a uterus or gallblader -but no digestive issues to write about.

Questions:

Her TSH is low and 3 months ago had high positive for antibodies, but now negative for antibodies but even lower TSH, but no improvement in symptoms. So i'm confused as to what could be causing her hyperthyroidism to get worse she is still very tired and has none of the typical hyperthyroid symptoms, but suffers more of the hypothyroid symptoms instead and continued fatigue - nothing seems to work.

Antibody tests are not very accurate to begin with, but autoimmune hyperthyroidism would be most likely.

As far as symptoms hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism actually share many of the same symptoms.

And, it is also possible to have both hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism at the same time (one thyroid hormone high and one low), although it is very rare.

Also, I don't know if she is taking iodine, but excessive levels of iodine can suppress the thyroid and will aggravate Hashimoto's.


Any ideas as to what might be still causing her hyperthyroidism lab tests to get worse? ie low TSH to continue declining but antibodies to decrease at the same time?

If it is not autoimmune, and she is not taking excessive levels of iodine then the other thing the doctors should be checking for are pituitary tumors. This can also lead to symptoms of thyroid dysfunction and actual hyperthyroidism by the increased output of thyroid stimulating hormone.

and could her dry mouth, eyes and throat be part of her thyroid issues, or an infection?

Yes, hyperthyroidism can cause these.

or could it be due to possible sudden loss of her estrogen(from withdrawal of HRT) or adrenals?

If the hyperthyroidism is not from autoimmunity or a pituitary tumor then there is one other possibility you are touching on here. Estrogen suppresses the thyroid. When woman is on estrogen replacement therapy (ERT) long term this shuts down the woman's own ability to generate estrogen. Even though a woman is in menopause this does not mean she stopped producing estrogen. When the ovaries are shut down or removed the adrenal glands become the primary source of estrogen followed by the fat cells, and tiny amounts by other other tissues. If the ERT shut down her estrogen production then she suddenly went off the ERT this would cause a severe estrogen deficiency that also means not enough estrogen to have a suppressive effect on the thyroid to help regulate its function.

(doctors refused to do hormone test except for testosterone, which is a bit elevated and low DHEA (she is taking adaptogens for adrenals (adrenal tonic) along with magnesium, kefir, prebiotics, recently started on Vit D (5000 iU per day with Vitamin K added to it)and she's still on a maintenance dose of iron supplementation. Anyway, could you please help explain what might be going on here.

CheersSmile

Some ideas to look in to above. If it is hyperthyroidism due to the sudden drop in estrogen preventing a slowdown of the thyroid by estrogen then this should eventually decrease on its own if she builds her adrenals back up to allow them to kick out more estrogen and balance the hormones. She should never have quit the ERT suddenly though. These drugs are really the type that need to be slowly reduced. This allows the hormones to slowly kick back in as the ERT is slowly dropped forcing the adrenals to make up for the deficit.

If this is what is going on then she really needs to focus on the adrenals. Flax seed can also help due to its extremely high level of phytoestrogens, which are goitrogenic.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-03-2012 09:18 PM
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vills Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
Thanks James, i checked with mum and apparently she's had a test done for Sjorgen's which came back negative for antibodies. Doctor tells her that's she developed some sort of allergy. She gets so much mucus going down her throat that she wakes up at night gasping for air. And then spits what looks like tiny hardened cystalised mucus. She still says all her symptoms conincided the year she was directed by her doctor to stop HRT immediately. She was completely fine before that. Her hot flashes returned once the HRT was ceased also.

What's interesting is that her thyroid antibodies (very high levels) came about the time she started taking two drops of Lugol's 3 times a week. She felt great like i did, but ultimately got tired again, like i did. Now that she's ceased taking the iodine her antibodies have disappeared!!!!! But still has a remaining Hyperthyroid, which she had before lugol's. But seems her hyperthyroid has got a little worse just no antibodies this time. She's lucky she only took a tiny bit of the iodine, not like me, another warning to others that even small doses can bring on antibodies!

Anyway, i am thinking that seeing that she doesn't really seem to have an antibody (ie autoimmune) issue yet, though obviously prone to it via the lugol's reaction, could it then be her lowered estrogen and progesterone levels that are affecting her ie causing her fatigue and dry skin, nose, throat and mouth problems and fatigue?? I also get very dry eyes and have quite low estrogen levels. Weird but we have similar symptoms and we both have hyperthyroidism and low hormone levels and obviously low adrenal function. When i've been on phytoestrogens i found most of my symptoms subsided. But eventually due to low adrenals eventually ceased working and in fact i got a bit teary as too much estrogen built up and affected thyroid function.

Or in her case, could it be more of an issue with her chronically low Vit D? She doesn't want to try anything to mess with her hormone levels yet till she finds out how her Vit D supplementation goes first. I think she should start on some Wild Yam, Vitex etc to stimulate her hormone production as i think her adrenals have crashed also and need the support - whilst she continues with supporting her gut and adrenals. I don't see the need to wait months to see if the Vit D supplementation works, as i feel she should support all organs now. Last time her estrogen and progesterone levels were taken (5 years ago, about a year after she ceased HRT) her levels showed below normal for postmenopausal women. She didn't have any thyroid issues whilst on HRT but now does. So what do you think, in her case, an issue with low sex hormones, as main cause of her dry mouth, skin, throat, eyes? or hyperthyrodism or just adrenals and/or is the Vit D issue possibly her main issue here? Come to think of it, when i look back my main underlying issues also surfaced around the same time i stopped taking the pill suddenly also! It explains why when i tried going back on it i couldn't handle it, cause obviously my adrenals had crashed and along with it, my thyroid also. Ah doctors!
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2012 06:05 PM by vills.)
08-05-2012 05:56 PM
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James Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
(08-05-2012 05:56 PM)vills Wrote:  Thanks James, i checked with mum and apparently she's had a test done for Sjorgen's which came back negative for antibodies. Doctor tells her that's she developed some sort of allergy. She gets so much mucus going down her throat that she wakes up at night gasping for air. And then spits what looks like tiny hardened cystalised mucus. She still says all her symptoms conincided the year she was directed by her doctor to stop HRT immediately. She was completely fine before that. Her hot flashes returned once the HRT was ceased also.

What's interesting is that her thyroid antibodies (very high levels) came about the time she started taking two drops of Lugol's 3 times a week. She felt great like i did, but ultimately got tired again, like i did. Now that she's ceased taking the iodine her antibodies have disappeared!!!!! But still has a remaining Hyperthyroid, which she had before lugol's. But seems her hyperthyroid has got a little worse just no antibodies this time. She's lucky she only took a tiny bit of the iodine, not like me, another warning to others that even small doses can bring on antibodies!

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately the people on the iodine forums keep telling people to take even more iodine when adverse effects like this happen claiming the problem is from "detox" instead.

In fact, I just saw another post of someone showing classic hyperthyroid symptoms after starting on the high dose iodine being recommended. And another person also reporting adverse effects after they just started on iodine. Of course this is being blamed on "bromine detox" again instead of the iodine.

I wish I could still post on Curezone so I could warn people of these dangers or tell them to read the section on iodine dangers as well as read the stories such as yours before they really mess themselves up following the dangerous high iodine advice.


Anyway, i am thinking that seeing that she doesn't really seem to have an antibody (ie autoimmune) issue yet, though obviously prone to it via the lugol's reaction, could it then be her lowered estrogen and progesterone levels that are affecting her ie causing her fatigue and dry skin, nose, throat and mouth problems and fatigue??

The drop in estrogen could cause this by the sudden indued hyperthyroidism. I explain this at the end of this post. Hyperthyroidism can cause these symptoms.

I also get very dry eyes and have quite low estrogen levels. Weird but we have similar symptoms and we both have hyperthyroidism and low hormone levels and obviously low adrenal function. When i've been on phytoestrogens i found most of my symptoms subsided. But eventually due to low adrenals eventually ceased working and in fact i got a bit teary as too much estrogen built up and affected thyroid function.

Or in her case, could it be more of an issue with her chronically low Vit D?

Low vitamin D could exacerbate symptoms of autoimmunity, but it does not not look very likely that autoimmunity is an issue.

She doesn't want to try anything to mess with her hormone levels yet till she finds out how her Vit D supplementation goes first. I think she should start on some Wild Yam, Vitex etc to stimulate her hormone production as i think her adrenals have crashed also and need the support - whilst she continues with supporting her gut and adrenals.

Wild yam would be the best since it supports the adrenals as well. But building up her adrenals in general will help with balancing out the hormones.

I don't see the need to wait months to see if the Vit D supplementation works, as i feel she should support all organs now. Last time her estrogen and progesterone levels were taken (5 years ago, about a year after she ceased HRT) her levels showed below normal for postmenopausal women. She didn't have any thyroid issues whilst on HRT but now does. So what do you think, in her case, an issue with low sex hormones, as main cause of her dry mouth, skin, throat, eyes? or hyperthyrodism or just adrenals and/or is the Vit D issue possibly her main issue here? Come to think of it, when i look back my main underlying issues also surfaced around the same time i stopped taking the pill suddenly also! It explains why when i tried going back on it i couldn't handle it, cause obviously my adrenals had crashed and along with it, my thyroid also. Ah doctors!

Being the antibody tests are coming up negative then here is the scenerio of what most likely happened:

When she was on the ERT this would have caused thyroid suppression. In response her pituitary would have increased output of TSH to increase thyroid hormone output to compensate. When she went off of the ERT suddenly there was nothing suppressing the thyroid so the increased output of thyroid hormones "slingshotted" the thyroid in to overdrive.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-06-2012 10:10 PM
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vills Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
So if i am understanding your right, it may be her hormones that is the primary cause of her hyperthyroidism here? Now that it's obvious that antibodies weren't the real issue (only iodine induced this and now antibodies are gone after she ceased taking small amounts of lugol - luckily she only took tiny amounts, and so seems her thyroid was able to resolve the antibodies once iodine was ceased).

Would then focusing on estrogen balancing be the key in getting her body kick started again? ie possibly the missing link in her recovery! or was coming off ERT only masking an already weak thyroid? In other words, would her hyperthyroidism be primarily a thyroid dysfunction issue or is it a secondary issue associated with her hormones?She's been off ERT for over 5 years now.

She's slowly working on adrenals but i sense her hormones also need work as the missing link here but not sure she would only be masking another underlying problem. Absolutely ALL of her symptoms seem to have started once she got off the ERT.

Not sure how to help her, as I'm not sure if it's her thyroid that is the primary cause and so she should focus on this or whether it's her low hormone levels that is the underlying cause of her thyroid to go haywire and thus resulting in dry mouth, nose etc. Or are her thyroid issues are a stand alone problem? (sorry for repeating myself here) You see, she won't take anything for estrogen balancing unless she thinks it's going to help her thyroid and dry eyes etc, as she's already on a lot supplements for her adrenals and low Vit D.

I know there is a cascading effect when one thing goes wrong, but an underlying cause is great to know so i can explain it to her about how things work. Any ideas for a plan of action would be appreciated, especially with how to move forward with the hyperthyroidism issue.

Muchisimas gracias again!
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2012 07:10 PM by vills.)
08-07-2012 05:31 PM
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James Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
(08-07-2012 05:31 PM)vills Wrote:  So if i am understanding your right, it may be her hormones that is the primary cause of her hyperthyroidism here? Now that it's obvious that antibodies weren't the real issue (only iodine induced this and now antibodies are gone after she ceased taking small amounts of lugol - luckily she only took tiny amounts, and so seems her thyroid was able to resolve the antibodies once iodine was ceased).

Would then focusing on estrogen balancing be the key in getting her body kick started again? ie possibly the missing link in her recovery! or was coming off ERT only masking an already weak thyroid? In other words, would her hyperthyroidism be primarily a thyroid dysfunction issue or is it a secondary issue associated with her hormones?She's been off ERT for over 5 years now.

She's slowly working on adrenals but i sense her hormones also need work as the missing link here but not sure she would only be masking another underlying problem. Absolutely ALL of her symptoms seem to have started once she got off the ERT.

Not sure how to help her, as I'm not sure if it's her thyroid that is the primary cause and so she should focus on this or whether it's her low hormone levels that is the underlying cause of her thyroid to go haywire and thus resulting in dry mouth, nose etc. Or are her thyroid issues are a stand alone problem? (sorry for repeating myself here) You see, she won't take anything for estrogen balancing unless she thinks it's going to help her thyroid and dry eyes etc, as she's already on a lot supplements for her adrenals and low Vit D.

I know there is a cascading effect when one thing goes wrong, but an underlying cause is great to know so i can explain it to her about how things work. Any ideas for a plan of action would be appreciated, especially with how to move forward with the hyperthyroidism issue.

Muchisimas gracias again!

Yes, it is sounding like an estrogen deficiency is the basis of the problem since there is no indicators of other causes. Since estrogen helps prevent over activity of the thyroid, the sudden and drastic drop in estrogen from the ERT shutting down the body's own estrogen production then suddenly stopping the ERT could have caused the thyroid to go hyperactive.

Hyperthyroidism can reduce body fat and weaken the adrenals preventing an eventual rise in estrogen.

More phytoestrogen rich foods would be a good start such as flax seeds, raw broccoli, raw cabbage, etc.

Certain essential oils are also very high in phytoestrogens that can be absorbed through the skin such as geranium essential oil.

Working on the adrenals is going to be very important.

And I assume she is going to be underweight, in which case increasing body fat will help as fat cells are a source of estrogen. Healthy oils such as olive oil, sunflower seed oil, safflower oil etc. can be added to meals to help increase caloric intake without suppressing the immune system as carbohydrates can.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-10-2012 04:35 AM
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Anderson Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
Interesting thread.

I was thinking about the relationship between testosterone and estrogen. Do they regulate each other?

If a man has very low body fat, that means that most of the estrogen production will have to come from the adrenals, right?
If this man has adrenal fatigue and thus very low estrogen that leads to problems with the regulation of the thyroid and (in case estrogen affects testosterone) high testosterone.

I read somewhere that people who have pimples usually have too much testosterone circulating in their bodies.

Can someone shed some light on that?
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2012 08:54 AM by Anderson.)
08-10-2012 08:52 AM
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vills Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
Thanks for that James, just one last question on this subject, my mother's informed me that the only thing she is apparently still taking, which i thought she wasn't is high blood pressure medication called Idaprex 2, contains perindopril erbumine2mg a tablet. She would like to know if this is a problem or whether she should ween herself of it and try something else.

I find it very interesting as her hormone symptoms/issues are similar to mine and i wonder if same thing happened to me when i got off the pill suddenly also about 5 years ago, about the same time my thyroid started really playing up and my hormone levels going south. I think estrogen deficiency gets ignored too much in place of "estrogen dominance" and is a forgotten cause or contributor to hyperthyroidism, and adrenal stress. I've spend hours on the net searching the connections and have found little on the subject. Only thing i've found is that apparently, if i remember correctly, which i think i am not but something along the lines that thyroid receptors are dumbed down by a lack of estrogen, not sure if this is correct. Everything is blamed on estrogen dominance, but not everyone has this problem. I know progesterone peddlers find hard to believe this. I think the problem lies in the similarities between the symptoms in estrogen dominance and estrogen deficiency. I feel estrogen deficiency needs seriously more mention if for nothing else, to at least balance out the hype on everything being caused by progesterone deficiency.

Thanks again!
PS mum says if you ever over this side of the world that she would love to cook you a home made meal Wink
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2012 04:10 AM by vills.)
08-12-2012 03:52 AM
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James Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
(08-12-2012 03:52 AM)vills Wrote:  Thanks for that James, just one last question on this subject, my mother's informed me that the only thing she is apparently still taking, which i thought she wasn't is high blood pressure medication called Idaprex 2, contains perindopril erbumine2mg a tablet. She would like to know if this is a problem or whether she should ween herself of it and try something else.

I have never heard of this drug and it apparently is not sold in this country. I looked up the drug and found that it is an ACE inhibitor. Here is a link to the drug information under another trade name:

http://www.rxlist.com/aceon-drug.htm

They recommend not stopping the medication without consulting the doctor. There really should not be a withdrawal effect, but they are probably worried about the blood pressure going back up. So it would be a good idea to have something else controlling the blood pressure before coming off such as ashwagandha (natural ACE inhibitor), magnesium malate, jiaogulan etc.


I find it very interesting as her hormone symptoms/issues are similar to mine and i wonder if same thing happened to me when i got off the pill suddenly also about 5 years ago, about the same time my thyroid started really playing up and my hormone levels going south. I think estrogen deficiency gets ignored too much in place of "estrogen dominance" and is a forgotten cause or contributor to hyperthyroidism, and adrenal stress. I've spend hours on the net searching the connections and have found little on the subject. Only thing i've found is that apparently, if i remember correctly, which i think i am not but something along the lines that thyroid receptors are dumbed down by a lack of estrogen, not sure if this is correct.

Elevated estrogen has a suppressive effect on the thyroid.

Everything is blamed on estrogen dominance, but not everyone has this problem. I know progesterone peddlers find hard to believe this.

I agree, and it really makes me mad when they blame progesterone dominance symptoms on estrogen, such as lack of libido, and fail to mention progesterone retention and dominance.

I think the problem lies in the similarities between the symptoms in estrogen dominance and estrogen deficiency.

Yes, many do overlap.

I feel estrogen deficiency needs seriously more mention if for nothing else, to at least balance out the hype on everything being caused by progesterone deficiency.

Thanks again!
PS mum says if you ever over this side of the world that she would love to cook you a home made meal Wink

Thanks. I may be doing some traveling soon. I just need an answer on that possible meteorite that has been at the lab for over 5 years now being analyzed. If that comes back as a meteorite I can buy my ranch and do whatever I want.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-15-2012 06:48 AM
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vills Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
Hey a range sounds nice. Maybe i can buy one next door that way i can ask you my questions directly!...oh scary thought hey! But seriously look up us if you ever decide to visit downunder! If i remember correctly there is also an old friend from your old forum in curezone who lives in WA Australia that i am sure would also love to see you as well Smile You have many a friends round the world. Hey I'll keep an eye out for a shot of you holding that meteorite on a future epsiode of Discovery!
Sorry forgot to ask, what are side effect of long term use of any high blood pressure medications (any type)on the body in general?
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2012 06:51 PM by vills.)
08-15-2012 06:40 PM
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RE: Thyroid question
(08-10-2012 08:52 AM)Anderson Wrote:  Interesting thread.

I was thinking about the relationship between testosterone and estrogen. Do they regulate each other?

They are antagonistic to each other. But you also have to factor in progesterone as well, which is also antagonistic to both estrogen and testosterone.


If a man has very low body fat, that means that most of the estrogen production will have to come from the adrenals, right?

The adrenals and testicles are both primary sources of estrogen in men.

If this man has adrenal fatigue and thus very low estrogen that leads to problems with the regulation of the thyroid and (in case estrogen affects testosterone) high testosterone.

Estrogen suppresses thyroid function and testosterone levels.

I read somewhere that people who have pimples usually have too much testosterone circulating in their bodies.

Both elevated testosterone and elevated progesterone can lead to acne. But so can other things such as excess iodine, which leads to inflammation of the follicles.

Can someone shed some light on that?

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-19-2012 08:26 PM
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James Offline
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RE: Thyroid question
(08-15-2012 06:40 PM)vills Wrote:  Hey a range sounds nice. Maybe i can buy one next door that way i can ask you my questions directly!...oh scary thought hey! But seriously look up us if you ever decide to visit downunder!

Will do.

If i remember correctly there is also an old friend from your old forum in curezone who lives in WA Australia that i am sure would also love to see you as well Smile

Several.

You have many a friends round the world. Hey I'll keep an eye out for a shot of you holding that meteorite on a future epsiode of Discovery!

It would be nice to have an answer. I found the rock about 10 years ago and the lab has had samples for over 5 years for analysis. So it looks promising, but they were supposed to do the final test, oxygen isotope analysis 3 years ago and I still don't have an answer.Huh So tome to send samples elsewhere.

Sorry forgot to ask, what are side effect of long term use of any high blood pressure medications (any type)on the body in general?

Depends on the medication. High blood pressure drugs include calcium channel blockers, ACE inhibitors, beta blockers and diuretics. Each is going to present different issues. The best thing to do is if you have a particular drug in mind go to rxlist.com and type in the drug name, then click on side effects.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
08-19-2012 08:37 PM
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