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Meat or no Meat?
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James Offline
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Post: #1
Meat or no Meat?
Hey James, i have a question for you and for all willing to contribute with more than anecdote but with a scientific approach.

Is Meat harmful to humans? Can it be eaten daily if it is grass fed/organic? Is red meat really better than white meat? is it harmful regardless of your "type"?

I have read such conflicting views, I am never certain of how much or if any at all meat i should include. You hear groups/people like "Weston Price foundation" and "Mercola" for daily meat consumption, and others such as the China Study speaking adamantly against it. What is your opinion?

To start with humans are designed to eat both meat and plant matter. The biggest give-a-way to this fact is the shape of our teeth. Animals with teeth have teeth that match the foods they consume. Cows for example will have flatter, wider teeth made for grinding. Great whites have sharp, flatter, triangular and serrated teeth for easily cutting through large fatty seals, sea lions, etc. Omnivores such as primates, pigs and humans have teeth designed for both flesh and plants.

But there are pros and cons to different types of meat. For example, red meats are very high in phosphorus that if consumed in larger amounts will lead to bone loss. Fish is safer in this respect, but can be contaminated with pollutants or dinoflagellate poisons. And all meats contain inflammatory arachidonic acid.

Bottom line is that again we are designed to eat both meats and plant material, but the diet should focus more on plant material with smaller amounts of meat included to provide things like B12 and to balance out the nutritional profile.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
06-27-2012 02:35 AM
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Joe Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
Back in the days before modern farming methods, animals which fed on grass or other plant matter were not too bad to eat. Animals which fed on rubbish or other animals were not ideal.

Meat has become much more harmful as a result of modern farming methods. If you were to go and work at a place where they farm chickens in a developed country, and saw all that they do, you would probably not eat chicken again.

Toxins accumulate in animals, just like they do in humans. With all of the harmful chemicals used these days, meat does contain more than it did before modern farming methods, and these are harmful to health.

If you could find an isolated island, where animals are raised naturally, and nothing harmful is used, you may find some relatively healthy meat. But I don't think you can find such a place.

The ideal diet in our time, is a vegetarian diet. Vegetarians, on average, live a little longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.
06-27-2012 04:54 AM
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Whitey Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
Interesting post.

I have poor muscle tone but I was never sure of the cause but I have a good idea what it may be from, and it's possibly not diet related. In the 80s I had to take iron pills every day or I'd feel tired and not function well on my job. Then I got a hold of something called TransMins Iron mineral transporters and it said on the bottle to not take more than 1 a day, but I took 2 or more a day for several days, and then I got signs of too much iron so I ate no animal protein for a good year or two. The Spring after I did this I noticed in the mirror that I had lost muscle on my forearms. I think the iron caused it to happen. I never felt quite the same since. I still feel like a clock that's over wound in ways. Maybe the DE / Silica will improve this over time.

I'm not convinced of how much protein I really need. I'm not sure if the energy I seem to have is because of 3 animal protein meals per day or if it's because I chelated with ALA for 2 years or many other things. On a natural healing program I was on last Summer, I seemed to thrive on vegan foods for months, and then I began to get GI symptoms. I realize that cleansing and vegan foods can cause you to feel better initially but is it a good idea long term? I theorized that my GI issues were due to an over alkaline GI tract and while that may have been a good guess, I think there was more to it than that. Pulling Hg out of my brain and redepositing it in other places. They warned me not to chelate, but I was fed up with being brain fogged.

I think I may cut back on animal protein to about half the amount I'm eating of it now, and add more vegs and or quinoa, millet and corn. High quality animal proteins are not cheap these days either.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2012 05:39 PM by Whitey.)
07-04-2012 05:33 PM
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James Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(06-27-2012 04:54 AM)Joe Wrote:  Back in the days before modern farming methods, animals which fed on grass or other plant matter were not too bad to eat. Animals which fed on rubbish or other animals were not ideal.

Meat has become much more harmful as a result of modern farming methods. If you were to go and work at a place where they farm chickens in a developed country, and saw all that they do, you would probably not eat chicken again.

Toxins accumulate in animals, just like they do in humans. With all of the harmful chemicals used these days, meat does contain more than it did before modern farming methods, and these are harmful to health.

If you could find an isolated island, where animals are raised naturally, and nothing harmful is used, you may find some relatively healthy meat. But I don't think you can find such a place.

The ideal diet in our time, is a vegetarian diet. Vegetarians, on average, live a little longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.

I have not known any strict vegetarians that are healthy. Problem is that many strict vegetarians don't supplement with B12, which they cannot get from plants. The liver stores between a 2 to 6 year supply of B12, to they don't start getting sick until years down the line when their B12 stores are depleted.

One of the risks of B12 deficiency is an increased risk of heart disease.

Also keep in mind that plants can pick up toxins as well. Soils around many farms for example are still loaded with lead from the many years leaded gasoline was used. Factory pollutants from smoke stacks can get washed in to the soil, plants are sprayed and farms are irrigated with contaminated surface water all the time. Even a lot of "organic" farms still irrigate with surface water that has passed many cities and other farms picking up contaminates. In turn the plants also pick up these contaminants. So regardless of what we eat we are going to have to deal with toxins.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
07-04-2012 09:27 PM
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James Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-04-2012 05:33 PM)Whitey Wrote:  Interesting post.

I have poor muscle tone but I was never sure of the cause but I have a good idea what it may be from, and it's possibly not diet related. In the 80s I had to take iron pills every day or I'd feel tired and not function well on my job. Then I got a hold of something called TransMins Iron mineral transporters and it said on the bottle to not take more than 1 a day, but I took 2 or more a day for several days, and then I got signs of too much iron so I ate no animal protein for a good year or two. The Spring after I did this I noticed in the mirror that I had lost muscle on my forearms. I think the iron caused it to happen. I never felt quite the same since. I still feel like a clock that's over wound in ways. Maybe the DE / Silica will improve this over time.

Excess iron can cause increased oxidative damage, but I doubt if it caused the loss of muscle tone.

Los of muscle tone is most often simply from lack of exercise or decreases in testosterone. Meats in the diet will increase testosterone so eliminating them could account for the loss as well.


I'm not convinced of how much protein I really need.

The body only needs roughly 3 ounces of protein a day, with slightly more for certain individuals like endurance athletes. Anything beyond that cannot be used by the body and is simply eliminated but can present problems in some cases. For example, eating a lot of protein and not drinking enough water can lead to kidney problems.

Keep in mind though that protein sources are not always pure protein. Beef for example is only about 22% protein. So a 16 ounce steak is not 16 ounces of protein.

The other things to keep in mind are that plants also supply protein and we need varied protein sources to help make sure we get all the essential amino acids.


I'm not sure if the energy I seem to have is because of 3 animal protein meals per day or if it's because I chelated with ALA for 2 years or many other things. On a natural healing program I was on last Summer, I seemed to thrive on vegan foods for months, and then I began to get GI symptoms. I realize that cleansing and vegan foods can cause you to feel better initially but is it a good idea long term?

I have never believed in any strict diets because each has its limitations. Long term strict vegetarianism can lead to health issues.

I theorized that my GI issues were due to an over alkaline GI tract and while that may have been a good guess,

If there is a lack of flora the intestinal tract can become too alkaline leading to a bunch of issues.

I think there was more to it than that. Pulling Hg out of my brain and redepositing it in other places. They warned me not to chelate, but I was fed up with being brain fogged.

Brain fog is one of those things that can have various causes such as thyroid issues or elevated serum calcium.

I think I may cut back on animal protein to about half the amount I'm eating of it now, and add more vegs and or quinoa, millet and corn. High quality animal proteins are not cheap these days either.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
07-05-2012 12:22 AM
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Joe Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-04-2012 09:27 PM)James Wrote:  I have not known any strict vegetarians that are healthy.

You obviously have not met the right people. Vegetarians, on average, live longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.

Maybe sometime you will meet people who have been health conscious all of their life. These people often look 10 to 20 years younger than what they are. They also have the abilities of someone younger than themself.

There are more and more people in various parts of the world becoming vegetarian.
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 01:39 AM by Joe.)
07-05-2012 01:33 AM
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James Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-05-2012 01:33 AM)Joe Wrote:  
(07-04-2012 09:27 PM)James Wrote:  I have not known any strict vegetarians that are healthy.

You obviously have not met the right people. Vegetarians, on average, live longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.

This is one of those unprovable claims. Actually, if we look at some of the societies with the largest percentage of centurions, such as Japan, vegetarians are in the minority. So it all depends on what source of information a person chooses to accept even though again there is no way to prove either way.

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07-05-2012 06:27 AM
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vills Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
First of all what i am about to say is only based on my observations as a traveler and aid worker. No scientific background provided to back it up. So i apologise in advance.

But here are my two cents worth: The vegetarians i've seen and met, while young look healthy all over, especially skin tone, it's all that detoxing that comes with juicing and vegetable diets. However, as they age they continue to look physically thin, but begin to show symptoms of muscle loss. Especially on their faces. They get very deep wrinkles indeed, only native people who live in the sun all day farming get the same deep wrinkles or smokers!

I've traveled to quite a few remote areas of the world and every indigenous culture i've met (some from the deep jungles of the Amazon) has an animal and vegetable based diet. Difference is the kind of animals they eat, it is much more varied, including insects and different mammal species that we would shutter to think as food. And they eat ALL of the animal, including eyes, the head etc. Nothing is wasted like in modern society. The only cultures that seem to be vegetarian, from what i've seen anyway, are those based on religion or theory, not due to natural selection such as in most indigenous cultures, which munch away on assortments of bugs and creatures we wouldn't dare touch.

Interestingly I also once met this man who was chewing on some kidneys, he was incredibly healthy and fit and worked doing manual jobs out in the outback of Australia. Anyway, he was telling me that he had been a vegan for nearly 20 years of his life and was very fit, well he thought. Till the day he tried meat due to the fact that he was stuck in a country where sourcing an only vegetable diet was impossible. Anyway, he was surprised to experience a new level of energy higher than his vegan diet had given him, which he pointed out was impressive already. This confirmed to me that a diet limiting the variety that NATURE provides makes us risk missing out on some nutrients we are not aware of.

Plant based diets seem to be excellent for detoxing the body which i agree are great for cancer treatments etc,but meat seems to provide the other half of the fuel required by the body, especially the brain and hormones. Animal fat is used for medicinal purposes eg the amazon cultures of latin america and native Adean cultures ate pork lard every day and guess what no heart attacks, or clogged up arteries, well that was till Vegetable oil replaced animal lard. Ray Peat, biologist explained this once to me, how he thought it was so called vegetable based oils that were the new cancer fuel and not animal fat which he considered an essential dietary source for most cultures that he's studied. I also lived in South East Asia recently and noticed that only the wealthy who were adopting a western diet of processed sugared foods, lack of exercise and increased stress levels were getting fatter, fast increases in cases of diabetes and thyroid diseases. Out in the provinces and the people there were still relatively skinny, and their diet was a mix of animal and vegetables. But these farmers had a more relaxed lifestyle, more exercise as they were farmers and their food came from the farm and wild (most food was caught from lagoons and the forests). I'm not saying they were that healthy either, but what i am saying is that they weren't dying from modern western diseases that one usually hears about metabolic, hormone and automimmune diseases such as diabetes and MS, lupus, allergies, PMS, PMT etc etc. They instead seem to suffer from usual diseases related to poverty such as tuberculosis, lack of food, polio, lack of hygiene, and chemical toxicity from warefare and new diseases from the west such as AIDS etc.


Asians eat ALL types of animals including insects, if it walks its eaten. Insects might be the protein source of the future anyway, after all there is a growing shortage of food in the world as world population increases land becomes more scarce. Insects are free agents, they require no land based farming (at this stage anyway) and multiply by the trillions overnight.

Maybe it's its just modern society farming that is killing us - eg our foods are processed, come from the same dodgy food sources such as corn,wheat, soya, palm oil and oh yeah now days are also genetically modified etc. And we rarely eat the whole of animal, such as the kidneys, tongue etc. From what I've read it ain't the meat or plant that is bad, the problem is in WHERE our food comes from, along with the AMOUNT of food we eat, AMOUNT of stress and AMOUNT of exercise we don't do. After all, both animal and plant based foods face the same threats eg by the realities of our farming practices; our countries lack of consumer protection legislation; toxins in our soil and air and water and the power of human greed and commercialism. Not to mention the cruelty imposed on our animals by both animal farming techniques and land grab for crops which takes away the natural habitats of native animal populations.

Realistically, what we need is a balance of the foods that our bodies require to function. So here i am today, wanting to find that BALANCE and ready to learn further and also unfortunately for me, to try to undo and fix some of the damage caused by having lived a so called privileged modern western lifestyle. And so i apologize in advance to everyone, for my 1 million questions coming this way!
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2012 06:02 AM by vills.)
07-17-2012 04:41 AM
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audible Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
My question is how can I offset all the phosphorus I get from meat (grassfed and grass finished) eating. I prefer a supplement, not just food. I did 2 years vegetarian and slowly switched to a low carbohydrates diet, now for 5 years. Carbohydrates made me sluggish.
07-17-2012 07:08 AM
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James Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-17-2012 07:08 AM)audible Wrote:  My question is how can I offset all the phosphorus I get from meat (grassfed and grass finished) eating. I prefer a supplement, not just food. I did 2 years vegetarian and slowly switched to a low carbohydrates diet, now for 5 years. Carbohydrates made me sluggish.

Calcium balances out the phosphorus. But you need to balance the calcium with magnesium. Acidified forms of calcium and magnesium, such as the malates and citrates, are best.

Becoming sluggish after eating carbohydrates can indicate rebound (reactive) hypoglycemia. Chromium polynicotinate and magnesium supplementation can help.

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07-17-2012 11:03 PM
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audible Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-17-2012 11:03 PM)James Wrote:  
(07-17-2012 07:08 AM)audible Wrote:  My question is how can I offset all the phosphorus I get from meat (grassfed and grass finished) eating. I prefer a supplement, not just food. I did 2 years vegetarian and slowly switched to a low carbohydrates diet, now for 5 years. Carbohydrates made me sluggish.

Calcium balances out the phosphorus. But you need to balance the calcium with magnesium. Acidified forms of calcium and magnesium, such as the malates and citrates, are best.

Becoming sluggish after eating carbohydrates can indicate rebound (reactive) hypoglycemia. Chromium polynicotinate and magnesium supplementation can help.

THANK YOU
07-18-2012 09:52 AM
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16_stone Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(07-04-2012 09:27 PM)James Wrote:  
(06-27-2012 04:54 AM)Joe Wrote:  Back in the days before modern farming methods, animals which fed on grass or other plant matter were not too bad to eat. Animals which fed on rubbish or other animals were not ideal.

Meat has become much more harmful as a result of modern farming methods. If you were to go and work at a place where they farm chickens in a developed country, and saw all that they do, you would probably not eat chicken again.

Toxins accumulate in animals, just like they do in humans. With all of the harmful chemicals used these days, meat does contain more than it did before modern farming methods, and these are harmful to health.

If you could find an isolated island, where animals are raised naturally, and nothing harmful is used, you may find some relatively healthy meat. But I don't think you can find such a place.

The ideal diet in our time, is a vegetarian diet. Vegetarians, on average, live a little longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.

I have not known any strict vegetarians that are healthy. Problem is that many strict vegetarians don't supplement with B12, which they cannot get from plants. The liver stores between a 2 to 6 year supply of B12, to they don't start getting sick until years down the line when their B12 stores are depleted.

One of the risks of B12 deficiency is an increased risk of heart disease.

Also keep in mind that plants can pick up toxins as well. Soils around many farms for example are still loaded with lead from the many years leaded gasoline was used. Factory pollutants from smoke stacks can get washed in to the soil, plants are sprayed and farms are irrigated with contaminated surface water all the time. Even a lot of "organic" farms still irrigate with surface water that has passed many cities and other farms picking up contaminates. In turn the plants also pick up these contaminants. So regardless of what we eat we are going to have to deal with toxins.

Dear James, let me firstly thank you for the valuable information that you are providing. Your understanding is exceptional and I am eager to learn more from you.

I have come across one point, though, that puzzles me. I find it strange that you say that you do not know of any healthy strict vegetarians, yet you are making videos with Markus Rothkranz. His girlfriend Cara seems to be healthy, too. Maybe this post was made before you met each other or do you think that they are in reality sick, just healthy-looking?

My question is: Are there any other reasons you would avoid a vegan diet other than the B12 issue? In Germany, for example, there is a fluoride-free toothpaste that contains B12. So, there are very easy and reliable ways to make sure not to forget to take it.

I recommend Turner and Thompson's (2014) recent article. They argued that dietary compatibility is largely determined in utero and via local environments and post-natal socialization.

I personally know four adult children from vegan parents. They, too, remained vegan throughout their lives. Two of them are professional ballet dancers and the other two are in the film business (both in front and behind the camera). All four are stunning, to say the least. This example, although completely anecdotal, gives me the impression that a vegan diet can be safe, and even desirable, if supplemented with B12 and especially if exposed to in utero and continued throughout one's life time.

What is your take on this?

I wish you a wonderful holiday season and a great start in the new year!
12-19-2014 06:57 AM
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James Offline
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
(12-19-2014 06:57 AM)16_stone Wrote:  
(07-04-2012 09:27 PM)James Wrote:  
(06-27-2012 04:54 AM)Joe Wrote:  Back in the days before modern farming methods, animals which fed on grass or other plant matter were not too bad to eat. Animals which fed on rubbish or other animals were not ideal.

Meat has become much more harmful as a result of modern farming methods. If you were to go and work at a place where they farm chickens in a developed country, and saw all that they do, you would probably not eat chicken again.

Toxins accumulate in animals, just like they do in humans. With all of the harmful chemicals used these days, meat does contain more than it did before modern farming methods, and these are harmful to health.

If you could find an isolated island, where animals are raised naturally, and nothing harmful is used, you may find some relatively healthy meat. But I don't think you can find such a place.

The ideal diet in our time, is a vegetarian diet. Vegetarians, on average, live a little longer than meat eaters, and tend to be healthier when they are older.

I have not known any strict vegetarians that are healthy. Problem is that many strict vegetarians don't supplement with B12, which they cannot get from plants. The liver stores between a 2 to 6 year supply of B12, to they don't start getting sick until years down the line when their B12 stores are depleted.

One of the risks of B12 deficiency is an increased risk of heart disease.

Also keep in mind that plants can pick up toxins as well. Soils around many farms for example are still loaded with lead from the many years leaded gasoline was used. Factory pollutants from smoke stacks can get washed in to the soil, plants are sprayed and farms are irrigated with contaminated surface water all the time. Even a lot of "organic" farms still irrigate with surface water that has passed many cities and other farms picking up contaminates. In turn the plants also pick up these contaminants. So regardless of what we eat we are going to have to deal with toxins.

Dear James, let me firstly thank you for the valuable information that you are providing. Your understanding is exceptional and I am eager to learn more from you.

I have come across one point, though, that puzzles me. I find it strange that you say that you do not know of any healthy strict vegetarians, yet you are making videos with Markus Rothkranz. His girlfriend Cara seems to be healthy, too. Maybe this post was made before you met each other or do you think that they are in reality sick, just healthy-looking?

My question is: Are there any other reasons you would avoid a vegan diet other than the B12 issue? In Germany, for example, there is a fluoride-free toothpaste that contains B12. So, there are very easy and reliable ways to make sure not to forget to take it.

I recommend Turner and Thompson's (2014) recent article. They argued that dietary compatibility is largely determined in utero and via local environments and post-natal socialization.

I personally know four adult children from vegan parents. They, too, remained vegan throughout their lives. Two of them are professional ballet dancers and the other two are in the film business (both in front and behind the camera). All four are stunning, to say the least. This example, although completely anecdotal, gives me the impression that a vegan diet can be safe, and even desirable, if supplemented with B12 and especially if exposed to in utero and continued throughout one's life time.

What is your take on this?

I wish you a wonderful holiday season and a great start in the new year!


I have known Markus for a long time, but never asked him about his diet. That includes what supplements he takes that may provide B12.

Maybe I should have expanded on that comment about being strict vegetarians that do not supplement with B12 since that is where the problem lies. A vegetarian diet is only unhealthy if a B12 source is not supplemented.

Thanks, you have a great New Year as well.

http://www.MountainMistBotanicals.com
12-30-2014 01:09 AM
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RE: Meat or no Meat?
Thank you very much for your response, James. This clarifies my question and I absolutely agree with you. All the best to you!
12-31-2014 10:32 PM
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